You can’t knock the hustle of Zack O’Malley Greenburg. When the staff writer for Forbes magazine was snubbed by Jay-Z’s manager after seeking the rapper’s participation for his upcoming book, “Empire State of Mind,” Greenburg could have easily given up. He could have also thrown in the towel when during his research he heard rumblings of a similar concept that Elliott Wilson, former editor-in-chief at XXL magazine, was working on that was tentatively titled “Soul of a Hustler” and was rumored to have Shawn Carter’s approval and input. Then as Greenburg was close to completing his unauthorized account, Jigga released his own life and lyrics biography with “Decoded” that would have decreased the average journalist’s drive to succeed. But Greenburg didn’t waiver because he knew that he brought a different dynamic to his dissection of S. Carter’s Roc-A-Fella dynasty.
Greenburg, a graduate of Yale, was diligent in researching all facets of the man, the myth and the mogul. He interviewed some of Young Hova’s friends, foes, and business associates including Jaz-O, Sebastian Telfair, Jamal Crawford, Fab 5 Freddy, Craig Kallman, and MC Serch among others. He even went as far as Facebook to find DeHaven Irby, who is credited on “December 4” from “The Black Album” with introducing Jiggaman to the drug game. He went even farther in his research of the Big Homie when he traveled to France to locate Lucky Lefty’s connection to the Armand de Brignac champagne label that he often promoted in his music.
Even though Greenburg didn’t get much time on the phone with Damon Dash, former CEO of Roc-A-Fella Records and Rocawear apparel, we are given just enough to know that being removed from an empire he helped establish still doesn’t sit well with him. Some of his former business partner’s decisions may not sit well with readers either.
In his book Greenburg breaks down each of Iceberg Slim’s ventures in great detail by accurately tracking the financial data associated with each business. We learn about each lucrative deal that was done and what caused a particular deal to come undone. There is insight into the weaknesses of Beyonce’s husband and what makes him tick. A lot of what we learn actually comes from what Greenburg experienced in trying to obtain an assist from the Brooklyn Nets co-owner for his own project.
I spoke with Greenburg prior to the paperback release of his book which is already in its third printing. The original hardcover that went on sale last March sold more than 15,000 copies after only six months in stores. I asked him about how he was able to investigate all the aspects of President Carter’s life and he provided me with the blueprint.
Zack, tell me about how your job at Forbes led to this project.
I did two summer internships for Forbes in 2005 and 2006. Then in my senior year I stayed on as a freelance writer for them while I was in college and I wrote five stories for the magazine during my senior year then they brought me on right after I graduated in 2007. After I got there one of the editors came to me and said, “Hey, you’re under 30. Do you like hip-hop?” I told her yes. She then asked if I wanted to help put together the first ever top earning rappers package and I said of course. I wrote an article for the magazine about how Tupac at the time was making more dead than all but five rappers were making alive. Then we ran this sidebar with the top five earning living rappers and the top three of those were Jay-Z, Diddy, and 50 Cent. When the story came out they were so excited to be in Forbes that they made this “I Get Money (Forbes 1, 2, 3 Remix).” I believe it’s the only recording that the three of them have done together and it just exploded and they were shouting out Forbes all over the place. Everybody here was really excited and it had never been cooler to be a journalist. Then a couple of months later the editor who I worked with on that project left and she gave me all of her contacts and I kind of became the music guy here.
How did the idea of writing a book on Jay-Z come about?
It was really right place, right time. The year after the “Forbes 1, 2, 3 Remix” came out I put together another Hip-Hop Cash Kings package and did features on Akon and 50 Cent. Later that year some editors at Penquin books decided they wanted to do a business book on Diddy or Jay-Z and they basically Googled business in hip-hop and my stories were the first that they encountered. They contacted me and asked me if I wanted to do a book on Diddy vs. Jay-Z and then we signed the deal.
Why didn’t you go with a book on Diddy because of his amazing story and then the tie-in to Biggie Smalls?
That’s an interesting question. Actually, Diddy is richer than Jay-Z which not quite so many people know. It hinges on how you value his Ciroc deal. He doesn’t actually have an equity stake but he has an agreement that functions as one so he gets paid out as though he had an equity stake. So we chose to do his fortune counting it as an asset. But when I was deciding between Jay-Z and Diddy in 2009 Ciroc hadn’t really exploded. Ultimately, the reasoning was that Jay-Z came from having so much less. He grew up in the Marcy projects and he was so poor that he would have to go to his friend’s house to eat sometimes. Diddy grew up in a pretty middle class family and went to a private high school. Jay-Z was more of the rags to riches American dream and the way he does business is more easy to emulate than Diddy because so much of what Diddy does is based on cheer charisma and not sleeping. But it’s harder to emulate that. With Jay-Z he is more calculating and some of the lessons are more applicable to an entrepreneur.
Did this book create any conflict with Forbes? How did you balance both jobs?
The way it went down was pretty interesting. They can’t tell me not to write a book or anything like that. But that doesn’t mean they don’t have their opinions about it. In 2009 when I got the deal, it was at the depth of the recession and I told them that I got this deal and I wanted to work half time for half pay and they said, “Okay, that’s cool and all but we are going to lay you off.” Then a month later they laid me off and apparently the rational was if you can afford to work half time you can afford to work no time. They immediately brought me back as a freelancer and it wasn’t the most lucrative gig but it helped. There were no benefits and it wasn’t the greatest thing. I spent the year writing the book and at the end of the year they contacted me and asked if I wanted to come back and they gave me a promotion and I came back. And I’ve been back for almost two years now. And there was also a change in leadership.
You have the paperback version out now. Let the readers know what’s been added to the book.
First, there is a new foreward by Steve Forbes which is not in the original about his conversations with Jay-Z when he interviewed him. It’s an unauthorized book but finally there will be some direct reporting of interaction with Jay-Z. I’m really excited about it because people don’t think Steve Forbes is a hip hop authority but here’s a guy who spent hours with Jay-Z and Warren Buffet and what a fascinating window into someone’s life to see how Jay-Z interacts with one of the most successful businessmen of all time. They sat around with Warren Buffet in a diner in Omaha. Then I did an afterword exploring the reactions to the book that I got from Birdman to Wiz Khalifa talking to me about the book. Then I did a full chapter on the re-rebranding of Jay-Z and talking about the impact that “Watch The Throne” had on his career and how he views that as a way to make his brand even more exclusive and luxurious. There’s a section of that chapter that’s an explanation of the line, “New watch alert –Hublot” from “Otis.” It’s an explanation of why he chose to mention that specific brand and trust me when I say that it’s a very interesting story and a typical Jay-Z move.
When you were finally able to track Damon Dash down on the phone after all those attempts it appears that you had a short time with him and I felt like we needed more of his perspective.
It’s funny. We were on the phone for maybe 15 minutes. It was a painful memory for him almost to talk about Jay-Z and his relationship with him and he seemed a little hurt. I can imagine when you helped start something with somebody and then at some point it is cut off. Then you are kind of stuck and then this person is going on and marrying Beyonce and being of the most successful people in entertainment. I can imagine that would be frustrating. I feel bad for Dame because all anybody asks him about is Jay-Z.
I feel that Damon doesn’t get the credit he deserves for building Roc-A-Fella.
There are a lot of people who tried to claim credit for what Jay-Z accomplished from DeHaven Irby, Jaz-O, to Dame Dash and to be sure each of them helped him in their own way but like Jay-Z says [in his song, “Lost Ones”], “I heard mutherfuckers saying they made Hov/Made Hov say, ‘Okay so, make another Hov.'” He has a really good point there. This is not Simon Cowell creating One Direction. There are lots of people who helped Jay-Z make it. The editor who hired me at Forbes isn’t trying to get a cut of my book royalties. Dame was always saying that he was the business brain and Jay-Z was just the talent. Did Jay-Z really need Dame? He is doing pretty well without him.
I feel that if he had Rocawear or a piece of Kanye, he would still be recognized as a great mogul. Some people feel that Dame was cheated.
Not to be harsh here but it also shows that Dame couldn’t stand on his own. I think Dame thought that he and Jay-Z were equally the attraction and if that were true then he would have been more successful. But don’t forget that for all his intelligence and business savvy he is someone who alienates people a lot and goes in and yells. And Jay-Z said that at some point, maybe Dame gets in his own way. If you look at John Meneilly, Jay-Z’s current right-hand man, he is like a puppet-master type. He’s not in your face. Most people don’t know who he is. Jay-Z needed a gatekeeper and that’s what Meneilly does. You can’t have a gatekeeper who also thinks he is the star of the show.
You mentioned that certain people didn’t want to be mentioned by name for your book. I found it interesting that DJ Clark Kent did an interview with you even though Jay-Z didn’t want any part of it and they are friends. I just saw them at a Knicks game recently.
I don’t know that Clark is in the inner circle. But they are definitely friends. The same goes for Questlove. They gave me a lot of great stuff that I didn’t see reported anywhere else. They were generous with their time. There was nothing in it for them. They are both elder statesmen in terms of the respect they have in the hip-hop community. They are not people Jay-Z would risk alienating over saying something truthful. Neither of them said anything unflattering about Jay-Z. Questlove told me a story about how the Roots were on Def Jam and they needed a clearance for a sample from Radiohead and they were trying through their legal team and they were trying for months. Then finally the day before the album is supposed to be finalized they have to get this clearance or kill this song which is an emotional centerpiece of the album. Questlove then calls Jay-Z and asks him to call Tom York of Radiohead to help make this happen and Jay-Z says no problem. An hour later Jay-Z calls him back and says the sample is cleared and that Radiohead is really excited to be on your album. I thought that was a great example of how he does business.
When it came to his Def Jam presidency, there were many complaints from the legends on the label such as Method Man, Redman, DMX and LL. You didn’t point that out. Did you think it wasn’t important?
I think that I put in some of the stuff about how it wasn’t as perfect as he would have liked it to be. There were a lot people he tried to build up and it didn’t work like Teairra Mari or Memphis Bleek. Memphis Bleek never took off as a solo artist. Without Jay-Z he wouldn’t have had any career. But again it’s an issue of credit. Dame was the one advocating for Kanye to let him rap. Jay-Z didn’t want to initially but Jay-Z wanted to sign him as an in-house producer and ultimately Jay-Z did support Kanye but it was Dame’s idea initially. Who do you give credit to for Rick Ross or Rihanna? All in all I think he did a pretty good job but that role was still constraining for him for what he wanted to do as an entrepreneur. The things you are seeing him do now under the Live Nation deal like curating this Budweiser Made in America festival in Philadelphia this summer shows the kind of entrepreneur he wants to be.
You know your book will draw comparisons to “Decoded.” What were your feelings on his book?
It’s a beautiful book and Dream Hampton, the ghostwriter, is incredibly talented and it’s visually pleasing but in terms of telling me things I didn’t know it didn’t really decode anything for me. There were a lot of moments where it’s like we were in the empty lot, 4 in the morning, dead of winter, guns drawn, 10 guns on each side, and glad we got out of there alive. But what happened? It doesn’t really get into the business side that much. The lyrical analysis left a lot to be desired. It didn’t really tell me anything I didn’t know. I’d rather look at Jay-Z songs at RapGenius. I feel like there are better explanations there.
Did you ever get any feedback from his team after the book was released?
Before I started writing there seemed like a chance that Jay-Z would cooperate. I was talking a lot with John Meneilly and Jana Fleishman and there was never a definitive no. He said maybe you can write a business book for him later. But knowing what happened with “The Black Book” I didn’t really believe that it was something they would really do. I had a book deal.
You talk in the book about Jay-Z’s stake in the Nets. Is there any clarification on what his stake truly is?
I wrote that he paid $1 million and the team and holds 1.5 percent but the 1.5 percent was already worth $4.5 million when he bought it and it’s probably worth more now because the team has gone up in value.
What were your recent thoughts on the “Niggas in Paris” song and Gwyneth Paltrow use of the n-word in a tweet?
It’s ill-advised. I’m of the opinion that as a white person there are words that you shouldn’t say and that’s one of them. I know white people who when they rap will say it. It’s not something I feel comfortable with. The Dream said he tweeted it on Gwyneth’s phone but it’s not appropriate. But at the same time Jay-Z and Kanye called it that name to be provocative. They could have just called it “Paris.” When you are provocative there can be unintended consequences.
So what were your thoughts on the NY Post columnist who took aim at Jay-Z and said the Nets should be called the “New York Niggas?”
I understand what he was trying to say but it came from such a place of ignorance. He thought he was talking about Jay-Z in 1998 or something. This is not the “Hard Knock Life” Jay-Z. What’s that song where he says, “She said Jiggaman you rich take the doorag off?”
That’s “So Ghetto” from “Vol. 3… Life and Times of S. Carter.”
I think that’s a great song by the way but that’s not Jay-Z now and I think this guy revealed his ignorance about Jay-Z’s career because that’s not who he is now. But you know that Jay-Z and Kanye are way too smart to write a song like that and only be thinking about face value. There’s a lot of history in that song from the notion of Paris as sort of a haven for black musicians historically in the 20th century when even in the Jim Crow days when black musicians weren’t treated as equals as performers in the U.S. and going to Europe to perform and being treated like the rock stars that were. Then you have a song like “That’s My Bitch.” Do you think that’s all Jay-Z is trying to say? Listen to the lyrics like when Jay says to put some colored women in the MOMA. This is not trap rap. This is making a point and I think the columnist got caught up in Tipper Gore shit. This is not mindless gangster rap.
I was shocked to know that you didn’t really like “Watch the Throne.”
To be totally honest, I didn’t like it the first couple times I heard it. I thought it was disjointed. I really liked “Otis.” The more I listen to it, the more I like it. I think it’s a classic in that it created a precedent for two superstars to come together where it was so different from a Kanye album and a Jay-Z album. It was clearly not what you could imagine either of them producing individually. It’s not an album that is one coherent thought that you can move through. “Blueprint” for Jay-Z was like that. The same goes with “My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy.” “Watch the Throne” bounces around a little bit and there are mixed messages. Are we talking “Murder to Excellence” or civil rights or are we being extremely materialistic with “Maybach bumper sticker reads what would Hova do?” Jay-Z is trying to establish himself as an ultra luxury brand. First he was getting the 4.6 and 4.0 Range Rover then he was getting the Maybach over the Mercedes. His thing now is forget being the guy who has that thing that you want that you don’t have. I am the guy who has the thing that you don’t know what it is. I’m going to blow up my Maybach and make branding even more exclusive. One of the consequences is that they seem out of touch and contradictory to the every man accessible songs and it takes away from some of the points they are making about society, racism and cultural politics.
You’ve been all over the place to promote this book. Please give a few examples.
I’ve done speeches at Harvard Business School and Berklee’s College of Music. I went to Georgetown this past fall for Professor Michael Eric Dyson’s Jay-Z class. It’s been a lot of fun chopping it up about this book because Jay-Z is a fascinating subject and people love talking about him. There’s an appetite for a discussion there.